I recently received a ticket that I plan to dispute. The alleged offense was disobeying a stop sign. I would like to know if/how road conditions can factor into a dispute. The stop sign was at the end of a downhill exit ramp that led to a straight-ahead-or-left-turn-only intersection (left turn through underpass), and onto a different highway. It was dark and snowing heavily, the roads were un-plowed and heavily rutted, and the area had received over 40cm of snowfall in the previous 24 hrs. I approached the intersection slowly (approx. 10km/h) and attempted to brake at the sign. The brakes locked and the vehicle started sliding. Fearful of sliding into the deep snow on the side and getting stuck, I disengaged the brakes, and continued very slowly into the intersection (approx. 5 km/h). I should note that the intersection was empty, and that there were no vehicles coming from any distance.
Unfortunately for me, there was an RCMP officer parked in the underpass who waved me over and gave me the ticket. I thought it was extremely unfair given the conditions, but I did not say anything to him at the time.
I would greatly appreciate any advice you could offer me!
Here is the law:
Stopping at intersections
186 Except when a peace officer directs otherwise, if there is a stop sign at an intersection, a driver of a vehicle must stop
(a) at the marked stop line, if any,
(b) before entering the marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or
(c) when there is neither a marked crosswalk nor a stop line, before entering the intersection, at the point nearest the intersecting highway from which the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting highway.
It simply places the onus on a driver to stop in the proper place when faced with a stop sign. There is nothing here that says "except when..." There is no requirement for police to prove that you did not intend to stop, just that you didn't stop in the proper position as required.
My advice on how to deal with a traffic ticket, in particular on making a decision on what to do for a dispute is really still the best that I have to offer in a situation like this. If you choose to go to trial, you are rolling the dice to see what might happen and if the JJP sides more with your circumstances or not. It might be better for you to dispute the penalty in writing but the choice is yours.
- Log in to post comments
Thanks for the reply, and also for setting up my account.
It sounds like going to trial might not be worth my while. Would you recommend trying to contact the officer to see if he'd be willing to withdraw the ticket due to the circumstances?
Also, I'm having trouble finding a resource that lists which traffic violation penalties can be lowered. Is this one of them? Is it possible to have the driver penalty points lowered, the fine lowered, or both?
This is my second ever traffic ticket in my 10-year driving career. I did not dispute the first one (left turn on a stale yellow, more than five years ago), so this is my first experience with disputing a ticket.
Thanks again!
- Log in to post comments
I suspect that you will not be able to convince the officer to withdraw the ticket, but you won't lose anything by trying.
I would contact the court registry and request a subpoena for your friend one the trial date has been set. They can testify as a witness on your behalf. This has to be done in person for a dispute of the allegation.
This is one of those violations where the penalty can be lowered by the court.
If you are not sure that you stopped and your friend is, you may wish to decline the opportunity to give evidence.
- Log in to post comments
In my personal experience that would be the last thing I'd recommend.
As for the accused's "defence" He's named two ?
a) The roads were so bad that I couldn't stop at the stop sign and if I had tried, my efforts would have caused me to slid off the roadway
b) I thought I went through the stop sign, but now, after posting that I had not stopped, all of a sudden my passenger tells me that I did stop.
Doesn't that beg the question. Where was the passenger and why didn't the passenger say something to the driver, when the police officer was issuing the ticket ? Also, if I had just stopped with great difficulty in heavy snow and a police officer said I didn't I certainly wouldn't have "forgotten" I stopped.
We have a police officer, observing a stop sign controled intersection and sees a vehicle not stop, and issues a ticket. Maybe he was a bit harsh, for gosh sakes it was impossible to stop a vehicle ! Well unless the vehicle was travelling at a slower speed.
So perhaps the police officer should have written a Driving Without Due Care and Attention ticket (6 points + $368). That ticket qualifies since this was a multi infraction incident Driving Too fast for Conditions and Disobey Stop Sign.
Sorry no sympathy here. The road conditions weren't unexpected already by your own words a huge amount had accumulated.
Take your lumps and slow down in the snow.
- Log in to post comments
"(approx. 10 km/h)"
"(approx. 5 km/h)"
By the time I got to the sign I was moving at walking speed. Did I mention it was downhill? Are you going to tell me you've never slid on ice or snow, not even a little bit, regardless of how "expected" the road conditions were? "Driving Without Due Care and Attention"... get outta here.
I disputed it in writing using my own account of the events. I was there, you weren't. I abide by the law, follow the rules, and am quite cautious. I've only had two traffic tickets in over ten years, both minor, and in my opinion, questionable. I say it was a dubious call on the officer's part. Why didn't the passenger say anything? I dunno, why don't you ask her?
And it's a good job I didn't come looking for sympathy. I came looking for advice. But, you failed to offer any. So why'd you comment at all?
- Log in to post comments
Interesting.
It was a bitter pill to take, however, if you read the last line of my post, I stated: "Take your lumps and slow down in the snow", that is my advice.
Advice isn't just advice that agrees with you, or provides sympathy.
Put yourself in the JP's shoes (he's the guy your going to have to convince, that you stopped, or that you deserve a break). You don't have to give evidence yourself, however it would be a little unusual for the driver of a vehicle to not provide exculpatory ("I didn't do it evidence"), but a passenger to do so.
A passenger in a vehicle, although not the driver, is not considered an "independent" witness, in fact if you had 3, 4 or however many passengers, they wouldn't add independence to support evidence given to support the driver.
If you provided evidence, and told the same as you have here, a JP would have an extremely difficult time finding that the offense did not occur.
- -> You have forgotten if you stopped or not.
- -> You remember that it was impossible to stop
Also a JP, would certainly wonder why someone who, apparently did stop after having phenomenal difficulty stopping, then being told by a police officer that he didn't stop, would forget that he stopped and was wrongly accused.
The very bottom line is that stopping at a stop sign is a strict liability offense, meaning that you MUST stop. If you didn't see the sign, it doesn't matter, if there was ice, it doesn't matter, you still have to have stopped.
If you had not stopped at a yellow light, you would have been OK, there is an exception to stopping at yellow lights, unlike this one.
- Log in to post comments
I'll reiterate that I was moving almost as slowly as I possibly could.
I'm quite certain that the vehicle that got to the intersection before me wasn't able to stop either; that person was just lucky enough that the officer happened to be out of the line of sight at that moment (he had just trudged across the road and into view of the stop sign when I got there).
I think that he chose the worst possible conditions and the worst possible spot, and went there to conveniently cherry-pick tickets. I imagine he handed out quite a few that night. I've been at that intersection countless times before in fair weather, with no officer to be seen. Typical.
- Log in to post comments
I have one more thing to add for consideration:
I already wrote up the way that I recollect the events, but I recently had a conversation with my friend who was riding in the front seat at the time, and she is adamant that I did in fact come to a full stop, albeit briefly.
To be honest, I was mainly focused on not sliding off the road at the time, so it may be that I did stop fully for a brief moment while negotiating the snow.
Does my passenger's statement factor into this at all? Specifically, could it help me win a dispute?
- Log in to post comments
- Log in to post comments
Answer